Information - Civ 4: The List
Terrain & Terrain Improvements
Terrain & Terrain Improvements
-Nikolai
Introduction
Terrain; the environment of our civ. Terrain improvements; the ways civ alters its environment.
Here; the place to find ideas on how this should be done in Civ4!
-List Threadmaster Nikolai
Summary
In the start of the discussion, the "terrain" and the "terrain improvements" parts of the list was most debated.
People are mostly agreeing on the need of a new and vastly improved terrain/map,
but when it comes to the actual kind of new terrains, the ideas are splitting.
Later in the discussion process, the old public works vs. workers discussion arose.
Pages after pages of this discussion filled the threads, and many ideas was proposed and debated.
The third large discussion point, was railroads and transportation.
Most people think that it have to be changed. Infinite movement for example,
is not particularly popular everywhere, one might say.
Related Threads
Radical Ideas
Spherical World
Things to Borrow from Other Games
Squares, Hexes, Octagons...
Terrain Improvements?
The design decision that can have a
huge impact
Growth - should it be related to food?
Customizable Auto Workers
What's in Civ4. Just the facts, ma'am
Civ IV will have a 3D map!
Discussion of possibilities
Railroads?
A vision of cIV
Terrain:Public Works System - Ideas
Terrain:Workers System - Ideas
Table of Contents
1 - The Terrain
2 - Terrain improvements
3 - Worker and PW ideas
4 - Transportation over the map
5 - Cities
6 - Pollution
7 - Mini-map
8 - Climate and weather
Conclusion
The Ideas
1 - The terrain
1.1 - Harsher environment
It should never be possible to irrigate desert or tundra EVER. Most military
units that cross them should die, as should be the case with mountains and
jungles. Forests and jungles should create plains when cut down. Irrigation
should be curtailed.
(Posted By Sandman)
Agreementos with the 'harsher environment' idea, but if it's implemented, better
make sure that the player is guaranteed at least a stretch of 'nice'
environment, with room for 4-5 cities - otherwise it'll easily get really
friggin' annoying.
(Posted by Stefu)
1.2 - Terrain technology
1.2.1 - Back to SMAC
Go back toward SMAC. have certain characteristics like elevation, ruggedness,
trees, grass, rocks, sand, moisture, temparature. Treat north and south poles as
in Civ2. Include fungus terrain characteristic in editor.
(Posted By Brent)
1.2.2 - Spherical world
Spheric world!!
If it would be done well and nice, it could really bring some immersion, hype
and a bit more sense (not including the graphics ).
(Posted by trifna)
I am strongly in favour of a civilization game with a spherical map. The reasons
why a spherical map would be an improvement include:
1. A spherical map would be more realistic. The polar areas could be fully
implemented, withn the possibility of nuclear exchanges over the poles, for
example.
2. A spherical map would reinvigorate the game, presenting a new challenge to
long-time civ players, who've grown accustomed to playing on a flat map. No
other grand-strategy game has used a spherical map to my knowledge, and if civ
doesn't get it, some other game will.
3. A spherical map would be aesthetically pleasing, particularly if it was
combined with a renewed investment in the terrain graphics.
(Posted by Sandman)
1.2.3 - Triangular/octagonal pixels
Triangular Pixels!
Or octagonal to increase the accuracy of the modeling and to maximize strategic
assault patterns.
(Posted by DarkCloud
1.2.4 - Hexgrid
I would support a hexgrid.
With a hexgrid, some adjustments would need to be made as there would only be 18
tiles in a city radius. Here are some suggestions (these suggestions generally
have to deal with the population explosion of the late 19th/20th centuries that
is so poorly represented in Civ I, II and III):
Either when a certian tech is gained or when a city reaches a predetermined
population (ie: 1-6 = town, 7-12 = city, 13+ = Metropololis) the city expands to
a third ring of tiles (anything more than 3, like in CTPII, I think would be too
much). The increase in available tiles will reflect in a larger population and
thus more accurately represent the modern age.
(Posted by donegeal)
We can also look at the possibility of hexagons with four-sided figures.
(Posted by Trifna)
1.2.5 - Multiple level map
How about a multiple level map, like ToT, so there is a level for land, a level
for undersea, a level for orbit, and so on.
1.3 - Suburbs
1.3.1 - Suburbs in a hexgrid
[On the discussion about using a hexgrid]
However, since most Civ players aren't going to space their cities 6 hexs apart
to take advantage of the additonal hex ring, I would also like to see the worker
job of "Build Suburb" added. As I stated in another thread, the action would
consume the worker and place a "town" graphic on the grid. Now if the "Build
Suburb" action was limited to the inner ring of hexs surrounding the actual
city, we would get a fine graphical representation of "Urban Sprawl". Now to fix
the actual population explosion problem I mentioned at the on set of this post,
I would have the "Build Suburb" action add two food to the tile it is built on
(now I know that building a suburb on farm land does NOT increase the food
gained from that farm, but the added food will reflect a higher population in
the city it is attached to to better represent the population explosion).
(Posted by donegeal)
1.3.2 - Worker builds suburbs
I have also be wanting a good way to deal with Urban Sprawl/Suburbs. Currently,
for astetic reasons, I use the Urban Sprawl graphic for rail roads. Looks good,
but then you get the Urban Sprawl everywhere. I have been wanting a "Suburb"
tile improvement. The graphic would be similar to a "town". Suburbs would only
be allowed to be built in the inner eight squares surrounding the actual city
(maybe even giving cities the ability to build naval/costal things even if they
are one tile back of the coast) and only on flat terrain (Grassland, Plains,
Desert). Have a suburb add one or two of each food/shield/commerce (added food
to show that the city is now larger population wise, added shield to show that
there is infact more than one city working to complete something, and added
commerce for all the extra trade that goes on). Building a Suburb comsumes the
worker.
(Posted By donegeal)
1.3.3 - City growth builds suburbs
When a city gets to a certain size, any additional growth has a chance of
happening not in the city center, but in a suburb. This turns a surrounding tile
into a "suburb" tile. These tiles do not produce food, or shields, but can hold
up to 5 citizens which can be made into tax collectors, or workers, or whatever.
The upside is that it gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of whether you
want the city to be commercial or producing or science, etc. The down side is
that you have to double irrigate, or farm other tiles to feed them. And you have
to defend them from enemy attack.
(Posted by wrylachlan)
1.3.4 - Suburbs must not increase food output
I like the "build suburb" idea, but INCREASE FOOD?! WTF?! What we really need to
increase is Production and trade. In civ3 those specialists were goddamn
worthless.
(Posted by Azazel)
1.4 - Terrain-specific Civs
Let some Civs be more suited to specific terrain types, such as mountains,
arctic, desert, forest, and islands.
(Posted By Brent)
1.5 - Text and names on terrain
1.5.1 - Naming of the terrain
However, past units it would be fun to have the option of giving names to
terrain features. No default random ones to clutter the map, but (deleteable)
ones you make like 'Monte Cassino', 'the Little Big Horn', the Mississippi, the
Rhine, the Urals, etc. Names for map places that you can put anywhere and turn
off if you don't want to see them.
(Posted by Seeker)
Place names. It would be good to have the option to put the place names in game
(and obviously when editing an scenario).
(Posted by Kramsib)
1.5.2 - Ability to add text on the terrain
The ability to right click on terrain and add text (from SMAC). This adds a
great deal to the experience.
(jimmytrick)
1.6 - Landmarks
Landmarks: like in SMAC.
(Posted by J-S)
1.7 - Terrain affects units
1.7.1 - Damage from some terrain types
Terrain afects units: some units should not be able to cross certain terrains
without damage. That is afterall why both Napoleon and Hitler failed in Russia.
(Posted by J-S)
1.7.2 - Chance to damage units in certain terrains
Certain terrains have a percentage chance each turn you move through them of
taking away hitpoints. It could be as though the terrain itself were a unit and
it "attacks" you as you go by. Certain units or civs would be more immune than
others to these effects ie. Mayans have no jungle penalty or a late game Special
Forces unit that is imune to all terrain penalties...
(Posted by wrylachlan)
1.8 - No tile overlay
As for radical... I'd love to see a sphere witout any sort of tile overlay. You
would tell units to go to coordinates instead.
(Posted by Fosse)
1.9 - Terrain types
1.9.1 - Volcanoes
1.9.1.1 - Active and dormant volcano
Dormant is very fertile, but has a risk of becoming active...
(Posted by Seeker)
Volcano terrain - great benefits while dormant: tourism, fertile after a
number of turns, science, any others? Should be able to include in City Radius,
but definite risk for partial or total destruction every millennium or so.
(Posted by La Diva)
1.9.1.2 - Unability to build on volcanoes
Volcanoes: Unable to build on them as mountains are now (but no roads or mining
is allowed either)
(Jer8m8)
1.9.2 - Hills divided into new terrain types
Hills divided into Mediterranean/Chaparral and Foothill, med hills are more
agricultural, foothills more barren.
(Posted by Seeker)
1.9.3 - Impassable terrain/Some terrain hard to pass
1.9.3.1 - Impassable mountain
Would establish a clear line between mountainous but passable terrain
(switzerland, nepal) from totally impassable peaks.
(Posted by Seeker)
1.9.3.2 - Impassable tiles
Have more tiles which are totally impassible and/or impassible in a certain
direction. The code is already in the game for not being able to go from one
tile to another in a certain direction. Its used for wheeled units crossing
rivers without a road. Why not add in cliffs, or mountains that are too steep to
climb.
(Posted by wrylachlan)
1.9.3.3 - Some terrain hard to pass
What if the movement cost of a tile was not determined by the tile itself, but
the tile border? For example Grassland:Grassland is 1, but Mountains:Grassland
is 2. Similarly Grasslands:Mountain is 3 because you're climbing up the
mountain, but Mountain:Mountain is only 2 because you're walking along the
ridge.
(Posted by wrylachlan)
1.9.3.4 - Do not implement it
impassable terrain - CivTot has impassable tiles - a bloomin' nuisance, IMO.
The playing grid is small enough without stealing usable space for worthless
features.
(Posted by La Diva)
1.9.4 - Plateau
Distinguish between saltwater and freshwater, and have them give different
resources, saltwater producing salt.
(Posted by Brent)
1.9.5 - Rice paddies
More fertile than swamps, found in deltas, don't disappear with irrigation.
(Posted by Seeker)
1.9.6 - Ocean Trench
More fish, adds more 'stuff' to look at in the ocean besides coastal/deep sea.
(Posted by Seeker)
1.9.7 - Badlands/Mesas
Hills for obs. purposes but very dry, irrigation gives 1 food.
(Posted by Seeker)
1.9.8 - Natural harbour
There should be a 'natural harbour' type of terrain that makes sea improvements
much cheaper to any city built on it and also gives extra trade.
(Posted by Sandman)
1.9.9 - Shallow water type
Shallow water type, at allows only small ships to sail there.
Why? To make it easier to defend coastal lines from massive invasions.
How to manage an invasion from sea then? Not sure, either the big ships must
carry those small ships as cargo with the other units or you could allow units
to "cross" that watertype using all movementpoints to advance only one tile. I
am sure some has better ideas for this.
How to bombard then? Again not sure.... But you could allow bombarding units to
fire up to two (or three or more) tiles away, couldn't you?! AFAIR that was
possible in the old war-game The Perfect General 2.
(Posted by TheBirdMan)
shallow water ... manage invasion from sea - ships could bombard from farther
out, with less accuracy (less damage), units coming ashore would use one of the
ship's movement points to "cross" the shallow area via AI landing craft
(Posted by La Diva)
1.9.10 - Basic terrain types
Peaks (really high mountains)
Mountain
Hill
grass
plains
desert
tundra
glacier
Jungle, forest, and swamp are 'improvements' in this model, similar to SMAC
forest and fungus.
Some terraforming should be allowed. With really advanced technology, it should
be possible to terraform a mountain into a hill. However, the system should
remember the original terrain. While a mountain can be transformed into a hill,
and a hill into plains, a tile that was originally a mountain cannot be levelled
into plains.
(Posted by lajzar)
1.9.11 - Sea terrains
Coast
Seas
Oceans
Iceburgs
Ice Cap
Shallows
Coast, sea, and oceans are as per civ3. Iceburgs represent a shipping hazard,
and ice caps are impassable except for subs. Shallows represent about 1/5 of all
coast tiles, and possibly other areas (such as the Dogger Bank in the North
Sea). The following special rules apply to shallows:
Certain large ships (carriers, dreadnoughts, battleships) cannot enter shallows.
Most units can only unload from a transport if the transport is in a shallows
tile or if unloading into a friendly city.
Marines (including any unit with this flag) can unload from a transport into
hostile cities or from normal coast tiles.
In addition, Oceans may have a trade wind (direction) flag. Any sail ship moving
in the same direction (or with a 45 degree angle) gets a movement bonus. Note
sure how easy this would be for the system to randomly generate maps so this
feature would appear to mesh with reality.
(Posted by lajzar)
1.9.12 - Natural
Forest (plains/grass/hill only)
Jungle (grass only)
Swamp (grass only)
Nature Park
Forest, swamp, and jungle replace the traditional separate terrain types. This
isn't a gameplay change, as these terrain types couldn't have farms or mines
anyway. It is more a change in the internal logic used. The Nature Park
corresponds to national parks. It appears around late industrial times
(Yellowstone was the world's first iirc), and provides a trade bonus and a
pollution bonus.
(Posted by lajzar)
1.9.13 - Other new terrains
Glacier: the food/shield/commerce production of this terrain would be 0/0/0,
although being next to a river would still give the bonus commerce; no terrain
improvements could be built on glacier (including irrigation, mines, and roads);
no planting forests on glaciers; movement cost of 3; can't build cities on
glacier
Arctic: production would be 0/0/0, but could be mined; in addition, could have
roads built on them, but not rails; no planting forests in arctic terrain
either; movement cost would be 2
Shield-Land: represents heavily eroded ancient mountains; a hybrid of hills and
plains; production would be 1/1/0; irrigation would provide 1 additional food,
mines 2 additional shields; movement cost would be 1; low (20%) defensive bonus;
can contain forests
Ice-Flow: an overlay on top of coast, sea, or ocean terrain; high movement cost
(of 3?); chance every turn for units occupying ice-flow tiles to sink (with
lesser chance for more modern units to sink); production would be same as
underlying terrain
Ice Cap: another water-based terrain; zero production; impassable except to
units flagged to pass through or under this terrain (such as nuclear subs)
(Posted by Xorbon)
1.9.14 - Forest being an overlay
I would like forests to be an overlay tile that adds +1 sheilds, not a terrain.
if you cut down a forest it will stowly grow back (100 turns?). about terrain
names with forest:
Grassland + Forest = Temperate Forest, Tropical Rain Forest
Plains + Forest = Chapparal/Mediterrainean scrub, Monsoon Forest
Hills + Forest = Upland Forests
Mountains + Forests = Montane Forests, Cloud Forests
Tundra + Forest = Taiga
Coast + Forests = Mangrove Swamps, Kelp Beds, Coral Reefs
(Posted by Odin)
1.10 - Terrain dependant on "neighbour"
ONE thing about terrain: puting tiles in an aleatory manner just doesn't give
the best results. An amphasis should be put on "next to huge mountains, there's
more chances to get little mountains", "next to a delta there's more chances to
get better plains", "next to desert, there is less chances to see jungle", etc.
It changes a landscape AND strategy alot (strategy would include to get "this
region" or "this other region"!)
(Posted by Trifna)
1.11 - Rivers a bigger part of the game
Rivers need to become a bigger part of the game, there should be some wider
rivers say 3/4 of a tile, or multiple tiles, with fish, in them at locations,
etc.
You should need a large river in the city to build the dam imporvement.
You also would not be able to cross these until after getting engineering and
then building a bridge across them. This would not be automatic it would cost
more worker time. If this is a variable width, it could cost more at a wider
spot. You should need to upgrade your bridge to allow the railroad or mechanized
units to cross it as they put to much strain on the bridge you built in the
middle ages.
(Posted by marcthornton)
1.12 - Generating a Map
On a random map, give significant chances both for landmasses to be close enough
for a primitive ship to safely reach the other, and for landmasses that you
won't see until you start exploring the deep oceans.
In choosing options for your map, be able to set percentages and numbers of
tiles of a particular terrain. You could have 50 to 90 % water, 0 to 100
volcanoes, and 40 to 100 % of your land as grassland.
Pregame, be able to chronologically guide the formation of your planet.
Based on the current world customization system, give five degrees of options
for setting each landform characteristic.
(Posted by Brent)
1.13 - ZOC
For ZOC, I'd like to see the ZOC only extend to the surrounding 1 tile radius or
where you can move in 1 turn, whichever is smaller. Thus if I can't cross a
river in a turn, I have no ZOC on the tiles across the river. Similarly if we
accept the creation of cliffs, etc. which are total barriers to movement, I
can't ZOC the tile on the other side of the cliff.
(Posted by wrylachlan)
1.14 - Terrain Graphics
Include more than one set of terrain graphics.
(Posted by Brent)
1.15 - Production Variance
I've seen people advocate the use of a 'x10 system' for food/shield/commerce
production. I think that increasing tile production would help give game
designers and modders more flexibility in fine tuning production from terrains
and terrain improvements.
In addition to that, an idea I have is to introduce a variance in tile
production. That way, tiles of the same terrain-type don't always produce
exactly the same amounts of food or shields. For instance, desert tiles could
produce 8-12 shields (10 +/- 2 shields) instead of always producing 10 shields.
In that case, one desert tile could produce 9 shields while an adjacent
desert-tile could produce 12.
A way to implement this would be to have 'base-production' and 'variance' values
for each terrain-type for food and shields. So, in the above desert example, the
base-production and variance would be 10 and 2 for shield production. If the
variance would cause a tile to produce a negative amount of a resource, the tile
produces zero of that resource instead. So, a desert could be given base food
production and variance values of 0 and 3. Deserts would then produce between 0
and 3 units of food (instead of -3 to 3). The negative values would come into
play later if the tile is irrigated. For instance, if irrigating the tile gives
+10 food, a tile that has a -2 adjustment because of variance would produce 8
food after irrigating, not 10.
(Posted by Xorbon)
It would be nice if the map generator could perform a smoothing function on the
amount of variance, so that you would get regions of high fertility grasslands,
or extremely resource poor mountain ranges.
I would even go so far as to say letting 60 or 70% of the potential production
of a tile be the varaiable kind. So grass lands would produce 10 food no matter
what, but CAN produce up to 60. Most would fall someplace in between, but every
now and then you'd get a great fertile area, and somewhere else on the globe
somebody is stuck with what looks like grassland, but has terrible harvests.
For those who care a lot about eyecandy: This system is a good place for the
usefull kind... A graphic tile would show the type of terrain, and a graphic
overlay would show how fertile or mineral rich an area is. The map would look
better, provide more information, and have more interesting terrain with
possible strategic influences.
(Posted by Fosse)
Given what Xorbon is saying about increasing the potential for 'Variance', I
think that the idea of 'Overexploitation' should be raised too!
What I'm thinking is that, once you build a terrain improvement on a HEX (notice
HEX, not square, or tile BUT HEX !!!), be it a farm or a mine, then you should
be able to set the output of that improvement-up to its maximum allowed level.
This could have important ramifications, should you decide to max out a specific
tile-as it would increase the chance of that tile becoming less productive. In
addition, overexploitation of tiles should also contribute to a city's pollution
level.
For example: Lets say that a farm can produce a maximum of +3 food-in my system,
this maximum would only be if you were using so-called 'Intensive Agriculture'.
This would be highly productive, but also highly degrading for the terrain.
Anyway, just a thought!
(Posted by The_Aussie_Lurker)
1.16 - Terrain change and resources
A flag for (strategic, bonus, luxury) resources that causes them to disappear if
the terrain is altered to a terrain-type that doesn't support that resource. For
instance, spices and rubber should disappear if you chop down the forest/jungle
they're found in. Horses should disappear from plains if you plant forests.
Uranium would be an example of a resource that would not disappear if the
terrain is altered (i.e. the flag wouldn't be enabled for uranium).
(Posted by Xorbon)
1.17 - Unimproved terrain earns culture/income after some time
After you discover say, ecology, every X hexes of 'unimproved' forest, jungle or
marsh squares will earn culture and tourist income for the city that has them
within its radius-or the nation will recieve the benefit if it lies outside of
any individual city's radius!
This would encourage players and the AI to leave areas of forest intact and
untouched for the later part of the game. Also, if forests and jungles reduced
per-turn pollution output, then these terrain types would be even MORE
important!
(Posted by The_Aussie_Lurker)
1.18 - New terrain types
Oasis - trying to grow a city in the desert for its strategic and/or resource
advantage is virtually impossible without one, until reaching Electricity and
artificial irrigation.
Quicksand - now there's a new tile. Unless the world map gets much larger, I
don't think I'd want to waste any tile on that terrain. Actually, most pools are
too small to be a whole tile anyway, right?
(Posted by La Diva)
Also, the more I think of it, the more I like the idea of a "shoals" type
water tile that makes it so you can't land there. That would allow the defender
to concentrate its forces on the "likely" landing spots.
(Posted by wrylachlan)
1.19 - Unexplored terrain harder to move into
I had a thought about a way to make scout/explorer units more useful and
desirable in the early game. Have a movement penelty for moving into unexplored
squares for regular units.
So a civ would have the following mapsquare statuses.
Unknown: Completely black. Here be dragons. No clue at all.
Unexplored: Squares that have come into the LOS of a unit, but your people have
never travelled into the square. You can see something of what's there, but it's
not mapped and the first unit to move through there is gonna go slow cause they
don't know the best routes, watering holes, etc.
Explored: Been there, done that, got the tshirt and the stupid bumper sticker.
Of course, Fog of War would also be overlayed on this too. And any territory
inside a civ's cultural borders would be automatically explored.
So in exploring with a regular unit, movement into an unexplored square would
have an extra movement cost. But a scout/explorer unit would be exempt from the
penelty. An early horseman with 2 movement might only be able to move at a rate
of 1 through unexplored territory. A scout would be able to move at full speed
everywhere.
In the early game scouts would be more useful. This could even be extended to
the seas. If variable movement rates for water were implemented a form of this
could be applied to water. Perhaps a transport with a scout onboard would gain
the movement benifits of the scout.
Another potential aspect of this is in map trading. It could become a lot more
useful with the increased informational benifits.
I was also thinking that perhaps map resources would only be revealed in
explored spaces. Ie. if nobody's ever been there, no one will know that there's
gold there, or oil or saltpeter.
I'm sure there's a lot more that could be done with the idea than I've outlined
here.
(Posted by Bleyn)
2 - Terrain improvements
2.1 - Natural terrain improvements
2.1.1 - Natural wonders
Natural Wonders. Small percentage chance, when you build a town, that there is a
natural wonder near-by. It would be cool to have them on the map, and you can
build near it, but I think the map would have enough to deal with. Thus, just
add it as a town/terrain function. Not sure what it would give, maybe culture
points.
2.1.2 - Changing terrain types over time
As some have probably already suggested, changing terrain types over time might
be nice. In the case of forests, newly planted ones might mature through various
intermediary stages over many turns. Perhaps only if not actively worked during
a given turn would a tile 'age' as such. Similarly, unworked grassland (or
farm?) might slowly develop towards a natural climax ecosystem... particularly
if such an ecosystem is represented in an adjacent tile (like a less
all-or-nothing version of SMAC's forest expansion). This whole tile changing
system could be nicely incorporated with the concept of old growth forests
(climax temperate ecosystem)
(Posted by Geoff the Medio)
2.2 - Natural Parks
Natural Parks and Protective land. If you are going to be able to designate
borders it would also be cool to designate natural parks that could help combat
pollution. This land could sacrifice shield bonus' for commerace.
(Posted by Japher)
National parks can be implemented as another terrain improvement. The same could
be done for suburban sprawl.
(Posted by lajzar)
2.3 - Ability to build things directly on the map
Be able to build Walls, such as The Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall,
which have an effect without the involvement of units. Be able to build Canals.
(Posted By Brent)
-walls. would there be a certain length that would constitute the Great Wall
wonder? would the length depend on the size of your map?
-canals. probably couldn't be built through mountains or hills. Maybe could only
be one square.
-bridges. could only be built over one square, and only very late in the game
-tunnel (chunnel). see bridges. One would be cheaper than the other, and maybe
something could happen to one more easily than the other. Chunnel could be a
Feat of Wonder.
(Posted by) Brent
2.4 - More levels for terrain improvements
Terrain improvements should have more levels, so that an industrial farm or mine
is many times as productive as their ancient counterparts.
This will allow well-developed civs with small territory to be more productive
than larger civs with less infrastructure.
(Posted by Optimizer)
2.4.1 - Bring farmland back
I must admit to missing one thing about Civ2...irrigation to farmlands. Twice
the effort for workers (I'm bracing myself for the comments from people who hate
anything that increases the amount of micromanagement), but I liked the nod to
improved strategies and technologies in domestic production.
(Posted by Shogun Gunner)
I'd be okay with farms, if we stick to the proposal someone else (forgive me for
neglecting credit where credit is due, I just don't want to browse the many
threads right now!) made about limiting irrigation to right along the water's
edge.
You would farm over your old irrigation, netting improvement, but you would also
farm over everything else as well, which you couldn't irrigate.
(Posted by Fosse)
2.4.2 - Multiple levels
For food (and others, this is n example), you should have multiple levels of
improvement a la CTP. However, certain terrain types will not allow irrigation,
and advanced improvements won't give teh same bonus across different terrains.
An example data file might be:
grasslands - 1 2 4
plains - 1 2 3
desert - 0 1 2
basically, irrigation can't be built in desert, farms can, but produce less
food, and superfarms get an extra bonus in grasslands. Similar paths could be
done for mining.
(Posted by lajzar)
2.5 - No tile improvements at all
No tile improvements at all. Public works (or even just cash) could be used for
things like military roads and canals and bridges... but not for building one
mine, or one farm, etc.
People in cities are responsible for improving their own cities, and will do so
according to the tech they have. When crop rotation is discovered, crop output
goes up without the player having to move a unit to the city and pushing the
"Fallow" command a bunch of times.
Cities can only build improvments if they have the available money, but the
player could earmark parts of the economy to be used by those cities. he could
set, say, 10% of the treasury to be used by cities to subsize perhaps 70% of the
cost of building mines.
(Posted by Fosse)
2.6- Canals
It should be possible to build a canal when the knowledge and resources are
in place. But to avoid it to be too crazy, limit the length to a few tiles
starting or ending (or both) at the sea.
(Posted by TheBirdMan)
2.7 - New improvements
-upgradable fortresses (maybe they can add defense AND act as a colony?)
-national flags (basically claim a square and eight surrounding squares, similar
to colonies, but still count as within borders)
-bridges across one tile of ocean between landmasses
(cassembler)
Missile Silos
(Drathx)
2.8 - Water-based tile improvements
Water-based tile improvements (nets, fishing fleets, oil platforms)
(Posted by hexagonian)
I really disagree with nets and fishing fleets... Mostly because they seem like
too large an abstraction for civ- can't we just assume that each individual city
builds a harbor and as such, there are shipmen?
(Posted by DarkCloud)
2.9 - Industry/settlement improvement
I'd like to see an "industry" or "settlement" improvement that comes with
industrialization and can be created like an outpost or airfield - it eats a
worker. It gives a big shield and trade bonus but cuts all food production. This
would also require the ability to ship food between cities.
(Posted by skywalker)
2.10 - Movement bonuses to some improvements
Give a little movement bonuses to other infrastructures. For example, moving in
irrigated fields could cost 1/2 moves. This way, roads would still be good as
major axes of communication, but there would be no incentive to build them on
each and every square (or hexa )
(Posted by Spiffor)
2.11 - Industrial improvements
Mines
Deep Mines
Mega Mines
Oil Rigs
Lots of industry, and pollution as a consequential side effect of that. Oil rigs
do the same for the sea.
(Posted by)
2.12 - Food improvements
Irrigation
Farm
Genetic Farm
Fishing Nets
Fishery
Sea Farm
Irrigation is ancient farming. Probably needs a better name. Farms refers to
late medieval crop rotation techniques through to modern farms. Genetic farm
refers to genetic engineering. It provides increased food and some pollution.
Fisheries etc do the same for sea tiles.
Hills can only be irrigated once you have the terrace farming technology, and
until you have desalination technology, you should only be able to irrigate from
a fresh water source. It should never be possible to irrigate a mountain.
Hydroponics should be a city improvement, as they dont take up vast areas of
land to run. Think Algae vats and mushroom farms.
(Posted by lajzar)
2.13 - Transportation improvements
Undersea tunnel
Tracks
(Roman) Road
Highway
Provides 2/3, 1/3, and 1/5 normal move costs, respectively. Undersea tunnels
provide 1/5 move cost, but if pillaged, all land units in connected tiles drown.
Rail depots are a city improvement that provides transport facilities similar to
Civ2 airports.
(Posted by lajzar)
2.14 - Civ specific terrain improvements
why not have civilisation specific tile improvements?
I have been able to think of the following:
Dutch: tulipfields +2 trade
Ottoman, Arab: caravanserai +1 trade/+25%defense
Zulu: kraal +25% defense/slows down enemy movement
Romans: imperial road +1 movement/ignore river
French: Vauban fortress +50% defense/intrinsic bombard
English: steampowered mine +2 shields
Scandinavians: sawmill +1 trade/+1shield
Chinese: fishpond +1 food
Persians: quanat +1 food
Greeks: olive grove +1 trade/immune to pillage
Inca: trail +1 movement/ignore river
Aztec: chinampas +1 food
Hittites: iron foundry +2 shield
Russians: gas pipeline +1 shield
Koreans: supercomputer access +2 trade
Americans: GPS decoder +1 food
Germans: Autobahn: +1 trade/immune to bombard
More can be added.
These become available when certain techs are discovered. The advantage is
commensurate with the time it takes to build them, so that some effort will be
put into building them.
Also certain improvements can only be built on certain terrain. For instance
sawmill can only be built on forrest tiles next to rivers. Likewise certain
improvements can only be built if there is acces to certain resources, fo
instance Hittite iron foundry.
Maybe to make it interesting captured or bought workers can build the
improvements of the original civ, so that for instance the Persians capture some
Greek workers and can make them build olive groves.
The advantages to this scheme would be multifold. 1) it would further
differentiate between the different civs, making the game more enjoyable. 2)it
would ensure a map that is more varied and thus easier on the eye.
(Posted by tripledoc)
2.15 - Use techs to improve the terrain
My suggestion: use techs instead. Have food improving techs like:
irrigation
crop rotation
accurate calendar
fish net
terrace farming
pesticides
hybrid strains
Shield improving techs like:
pit mining
strip mining
quarrying
oil drilling
off shore drilling
And trade improving techs like:
roads
currency
trade ships
banking
limited liability
Maybe each tech increases the production of all cities by a certain percentage.
I would keep roads / railroads (built with a public works system), but only for
movement, not trade increases. This is because placing roads to important places
is actually an interesting strategic decision, not the drudgery of
must-rr-every-tile.
This will also have the bonus of not turning the map into an ugly railroaded
robotic looking mess.
Whether you like the tech idea or not, please give serious thought to
eliminating terrain improvements.
In a game, how many times do you decide to, for instance, declare war? Maybe a
dozen or so. And how many times do you decide what tile to move worker #45 to?
How many times do you decide "irrigate here, mine there?" Literally hundreds,
probably THOUSANDS.
Change that ratio! Spend time making fun decisions, not mindless ones!
Eliminating terrain improvements is the single thing that will do the most to
increase the fun of Civ and make it appeal to a wider audiance.
(Posted by nato)
You ideas would not work nato:
1. Getting rid of roads is impossible-a tech that would allow your units the
same benefits on every square would be ridiculously powerful, as well as
completely ahistorical-how could we cut the roads? IN fact, the same goes for
mines.
Tedium of micromanagement can be solved with better automation-need to make a
road? Tell worker x, we need a road from here to there.
The fact is that what you term tedious is in fact the core of empire
building:administration. If you don;t like it, automate the workers. That
simple.
I play civ to build an empire, to simulate building a civilization. That means
making roads-that means grand improvement project-the romans are known for
theirs roads, the chinese emperor for their canals and walls. If you want a game
devoid of that, simple, don't play civ.
(Posted by GePap)
Terrain & Improvements Page 2
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